Lee T. The dates and days refer to the time that the Sun appears to spend in each of the constellations. I took the days based on a day year and converted them to the corresponding arcs that each constellation occupies along the ecliptic. I also included the approximate dates that the Sun enters each of the Signs , both in the Tropical Zodiac and also in the Sidereal Zodiac.
The Tropical and Sidereal Zodiacs: A Discussion.
The table should illustrate clearly the difference between the signs and the constellations. The signs , you will remember, are units of measurement, each consisting of 30 degrees of arc. While there are most certainly 13 constellations that cross the ecliptic, the signs are not the same thing as the constellations.
It should also be obvious from looking at this table that the Sidereal Zodiac does not rely on the constellations any more than the Tropical Zodiac does. While there is certainly a greater correlation between the Sidereal Signs and the constellations along the ecliptic , again, the constellations do not divide the ecliptic into equal segments and therefore they are not used as the basis for the Sidereal Zodiac.
In fact, there even appears to be a discrepancy between when Dr. Shapiro notes that the Sun Enters the Constellation of Aries and when the Sidereal Sign of Aries is thought to begin for the year The discrepancy between where astrologers place a planet in the night sky, and where astronomers place that same planet is also related to the difference between the Constellations , the Tropical Zodiac and the Sidereal Zodiac. Once again, although the Tropical and the Sidereal Zodiacs are very different, they each represent an entirely valid system of astrology. Kevin, this was a great answer.
I was looking for a post that explains sidereal calendar for my blogpost on classifying Indian calendars. I found the wikipedia article not very illuminating. Your article was fifth on the google search on this topic, but I ended up linking yours. Once again, although the Tropical and the Sidereal Zodiacs are very different, they each represent an entirely valid system of astrology wrong, both systems can not be correct at the same time.
Regarding the tropical zodiac being based on seasonal variations, what about the Southern Hemisphere? That said, astrologers generally react very badly to this kind of implication, just assert that it works the same way as in the Northern Hemisphere, while essentially citing nothing but experience and hunches, but perhaps simultaneously claiming that the signs "mean something different" in the Southern Hemisphere without actually being different signs. The best I could get out of them was a claim that the Southern Hemisphere is some kind of bizarre shadow world where people's shadows have more power than their conscious mind, thus causing them to veer back and forth between their own sign and its opposite in terms of behavior.
I have to say, I don't know what to think about the Southern Hemisphere. Sometimes I think that since Astrology was developed in the Northern Hemisphere, it doesn't actually work as intended anywhere else. Jeremy, Well, the short answer is no, the Southern Hemisphere doesn't have a say in things because astrology was developed in the Northern Hemisphere. However, just because the meanings of the signs were vaguely based on the seasons in the Northern Hemisphere does not mean that the meanings of the signs are dependent on those associations.
Astrology works just fine in the Southern Hemisphere because interpretations aren't based on the seasons. There are some adjustments required with regards to the house cusps because given the majority of the population of the world lives in the Northern Hemisphere, and certainly the vast majority of astrologers do the tables of houses are all calculated for the Northern Hemisphere. The planets don't change positions or signs in the Southern Hemisphere, neither do interpretations change.
And again: the meanings of the signs are not seasonal, and so they apply regardless of where you are on the planet. The meanings of the signs have far more to do with the Essential Dignities than they have to do with the Tropical Seasons. If the meanings aren't dependent on the seasons, and you make reference to the fact that the planets don't physically change positions between the Northern and Southern Hemisphere and thus shouldn't be counted as different signs, isn't that basically going back to the idea that it's the absolute physical positions of the planets in the sky that indicate meaning rather than relative divisions of the epileptic starting at the vernal equinox?
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And thus, tacitly accepting one of the premises of sidereal astrology while rejecting the conclusion it implies? I know you said the meaning is based on Essential Dignities, but the problem is that the debate itself regards disagreement over which parts of the skies do, indeed, possess the Essential Dignities. You can't even discuss the meaning of a specific degree of Aries or the first ten degrees of it without first declaring a specific part of the sky to be Aries. Even leaving seasons out of it, Northern Hemisphere Tropical Astrologers can point to the Vernal Equinox and say that their zodiac is based on 30 degree divisions starting from that point, regardless of what constellations are in the sky at that point.
Sidereal Astrologers anywhere can either use the constellations directly, or at use a particular fixed star as the starting point of their Zodiac's divisions of the epileptic. All of these are perfectly logical, self-contained systems that follow their own rules consistently. The problem is that it's no longer true in the Southern Hemisphere.
Instead, the way things are now, people are declaring the autumnal equinox to be the beginning of Aries, and the spring equinox to be the beginning of Libra. It seems like there's really no recourse other than to recursively point to the existing definition and say that they're following it because that's the rule. Kind of like how you're "supposed" to celebrate Christmas on December 25th, and they end up celebrating it in the summer. I mean, I guess they could try arguing that the flow of seasons is "wrong," "deceptive," or "backwards" in their part of the world, and that the metaphysical truth of nature is only revealed by the cycles of life in the Northern Hemisphere.
But short of that, there's really no easy way to justify tropical astrology in the Southern Hemisphere on the basis of anything other than tradition and a desire to adhere to definitions created in other parts of the world. I don't dismiss Astrology in general, but I have to give pause to trusting something that's internally inconsistent and has seemingly arbitrary definitions. I would not be comfortable casting a chart for anyone born south of the equator.
I just don't have the confidence that the definitions the ancients came up with living in places like Greece, Mesopotamia, and such are valid at lower latitudes. I'm not asserting that the all the signs are degrees opposite, but I'm seriously forced to question whether the assumptions that underpin Tropical Astrology can actually hold up in a part of the world where most of the assumptions of those who created it are invalid. I know that a lot of people assume it works and assert it works, but there seems to be absolutely no logic at all behind those assumptions and assertions that it "just works somehow.
The Hindu vedic astrology is often perceived to be more precise in part due to their usage of the fixed stars. At the end of the day, many of us have been brought up with the idea that the active choices we make today will change our individual destinies in much more reliable ways than any other external force could do. Surely, one must not discard the sidereal Zodiac model. It is still a valid division of the ecliptic. What required is the sense of discernment. Carefully analyse the planetary alignments with the fixed stars to find what stellar energies may have a strong influence.
Remember that the fixed stars influence is very punctual. In your daily astrological observations seek to verify the connections between the fixed star influence and other astrological factors like aspects and transits. Our prediction is that the influence of the fixed stars will be rediscovered once the humanity sets their foot into space and begins to colonise the Solar System.
That will be the moment when the tropical Zodiac will become the principle of the past, and completely new forms of astrology will emerge — they will be based on the mathematics of the stars and the planets. To summarise it all, the sidereal Zodiac and the fixed stars is where we started and where will possibly return in the future. At the current stage, the sidereal Zodiac makes perfect sense when there are some strong alignments between the planets and the fixed stars.
The fixed stars is a fascinating topic and the story about the influence and astrological interpretation of the fixed stars is certainly coming soon, stay tuned! The fixed stars is a fascinating topic and more stories about the influence and astrological interpretation of the fixed stars are certainly coming soon, stay tuned! The Fixed Stars add-on for Time Nomad astrology app allows for further exploration of fixed stars, including their aspects to planets, parallels and rise, transit and culmination for any chart.
Excellent presentation on the differences between the two zodiacs. Good point, thank you for the explanation. To sum it up: the vernal Equinox day was decided by the star rising above the horizon just before the sunrise thus allowing for visual observation of the morning of the day of the vernal Equinox — albeit introducing the shift of the Zodiac sign boundaries. Yes, and the position of the star has to be about 15 degrees ahead of the Sun, because any less than 15 degrees, the sky has already turned blue enough to not be be able to see the star.
In ancient times according to numerous sources, this was the calibration method. Gemstone: emerald, Plant: sage. The discovery of the movement of the equinox is attributed to Hipparchus of Nicaea who lived during — BC. Each equinox moves by a small amount resulting in a constant drift of the zero point of the tropical Zodiac relative to the stars. Introducing Time Nomad add-on: Fixed stars The Fixed Stars add-on for Time Nomad astrology app allows for further exploration of fixed stars, including their aspects to planets, parallels and rise, transit and culmination for any chart.
Reply to Terry MacKinnell. Reply to thread started by Terry MacKinnell. Reply to Mizrahi. Reply to thread started by Mizrahi.
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Awesome well presented easily understood. All of the Astrology on this site is confidently and happily Western Sidereal. I have been successfully practicing Western Sidereal Astrology for many years. The purpose of this site which is also a school for Western Sidereal Astrology is to introduce Western Sidereal Astrology to the very many people who are interested in it. At this stage there is already a lot here for you to explore. In the very near future I will be adding a lot more information about this absolutely fascinating and relevant subject.
When you read through all of the Astrology pages that are here now you will have a pretty good idea of what Western Sidereal Astrology is about. In time I hope that this Sidereal Astrology school and site will become a center for Western Sidereal Astrologers, students, and interested members of the general public.
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- The Zodiac Debate: Tropical vs Sidereal.
I also hope to add a Sidereal Chart Calculator so that you can calculate your chart and then look up the various meanings it will have, in the many writings on this site. Almost any Astrology Software has a Sidereal function that you can employ, so this is not an urgent problem. If you go looking, as I have often done, for Western Sidereal Astrology, on the internet, you wont find much.
There is really a lot of Hindu Sidereal Astrology out there and an overwhelmingly vast quantity of Tropical Astrology. But next to no Western Sidereal Astrology, which brings me to a very important point. I am unable to discuss the relative merits of Tropical as compared to Sidereal. Frankly all of this bores me. This website is dedicated to the celebration of Western Sidereal Astrology, and that, dear visitor, is wonderfully that.
I am totally convinced that Sidereal Astrology is a Sacred Science that reaches back to the beginning of all Astrology in ancient Egypt. I am also convinced that Sidereal Astrology presupposes reincarnation and the law of Maat or balance in all things.
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