It would have been interesting to have had Ken Bowser on the show for the Western Sidereal perspective an opportunity lost I think? There is no reason one cannot use the Tropical Zodiac within the framework of Jyotish. We know have the technology to use the real Visual constellations as the backdrop for a more accurate astrology based on the 13 sign constellations. Sidereal AStrology should never be termed as Vedic Astrology. Sidereal Astrology developed in ancient Iraq. Vedic astrology is a wrong concept altogether and Indian astrology is right word. Indian Astrology never used the zodiac but the constellation nakshatras and other concepts.
It is a different astrology altogether like Chinese, Maya, Egyptian and Celtic. Somewhere in 4th Century, some Indian astrologers started using the zodiac. Since, the influence was Greek, I think the first Indian zodiac astrologers were using Tropical. Ancient Indians hardly remembered birthdates. So, zodiac was not at all popular. Even, nakshatra constellation was only a literary work and not put into use. Recently last 50 years , the zodiac has made an impression in India.
Even, when I was young, astrology meant palm reading. Since, Nakshatra astrology became popular in last 90 years, the sidereal calculation was also applied to zodiac. Many astrologers in India use the word Vedic astrology only to play the emotional game with other Indians. The reason is purely monetary. Regarding Sidereal vs Tropical debate, I am still confused and is still open to interpretations. Great talk as well. This will be true no matter the hemisphere.
Only just found these — so donkey years 2 late to leave a topical comment. These podcasts are really interesting, I am slowly ploughing my way through them. Nice work Chris and Team. Also: Lahiri was not chairman of the CRC, merely its secretary.
Ending the War between the Astrologers
He also printed a fairly popular ephemeris in India so no vested interests in having his ayanamsa being right. He was by all accounts an astrologer himself. There is no historical use of using Chitra Spica as reference star to define degree zero of the Zodiac. The constellations are indeed of unequal size, but where were their original boundaries? Like the boarders of countries, did these not shift over the ages.
Perhaps the lower section of Orphiuchus was originally part of Scopius? Modern constellations probably bear little resemblance to the ancient view of the skies. Perhaps it was just convenient to divide the zodiac into equal12 segments. Precession is not constant — so that puts a whole new slant on nutation calculation, nicely pointed out by Kenneth. Weirdly Hipparcos used Chitra as one of his important starts to measure precession, he placed it at roughly degrees longitude, 3 degrees different to the popular Lahiri ayanamsa. There are many Ayanamsa used in India.
The range Kenneth gives is very conservative. Some are much larger ie: more than 3 degrees different. Prior to Lahiri the most popular ayanamsa in India was Revatipaksha.
Western vs. Eastern: a comparison
Its a big mystery why we called Chitrapaksha, the Lahiri Ayanamsa. Do you have a citation or a reference I could follow up on for the statement about a Greek prior to Hipparchus discovering precession? Never heard of a Greek source for precession before Hipparchus.
And I have read very widely on this topic. However, there has always been a dissenting view that the Babylonians first discovered precession.
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However, the idea has been out of favour with academics for a long time. In particular Otto Neugebauer was the most prominent researcher who sought to refute the theory of a Babylonian discovery of precession. Thank you for the link Mark, I will read. That being said its quite amazing to think that data from Timocharis was accurate enough to make his Hipparchus latter comparative observation and to then formulate the idea that earths orbit was not stable.
While I note precession is commonly referred to as a wobble, I see it more in terms of orbits sliding backward over time. Hi Chris, quick reply. Sorry if my previous comments came over sounding pedantic, I was meaning to re-write and tone down. I get flappy about ayanamsa as I spent quite a bit of time trying to get to the bottom of that particular issue.
Ayanamshas in Sidereal Astrology - Astrodienst
There is a section on Hipparchus. Does that help? I assumed the author to be reasonable, it seemed well researched. BTW — these are excellent podcasts, really professional. Thank you so much for this wonderful discussion. I have been thinking about this a great deal lately and stumbled over this episode by accident. So happy I did! This site uses Akismet to reduce spam. Learn how your comment data is processed. The Astrology Podcast is a weekly show featuring discussions on technical, historical, and philosophical topics related to astrology, hosted by professional astrologer Chris Brennan.
Patrons can get early access to new episodes, higher quality recordings, a private discussion forum, and more.
Patreon supporters can also get access to a private monthly podcast where we talk about the most auspicious electional charts over the next few weeks:. You can subscribe to the podcast for free via email, iTunes, or other mobile apps. See our subscription page for more information on how to subscribe. Outline of the Episode Here is an outline of some of the main points that we focused on during the course of this episode, based on the show notes that were prepared before we talked: There are three zodiacs: constellational, sidereal, and tropical.
Tropical/Western vs Sidereal/Vedic Astrology- Which is better or more accurate?
Started with the constellations along the ecliptic. Ecliptic is the path the planets take across the sky. Only goes through certain constellations By the 5th century BCE the zodiacal signs were standardized in Mesopotamia. Sidereal zodiac with 12 signs of 30 degrees each. Later by the 2nd century we see Ptolemy firmly adopt the tropical zodiac. Based on the solstices and the equinoxes.
More connected with the seasons. In this period the zodiacs were roughly aligned, so there was no issue. Due to precession they move about 1 degree every 72 years. Minor change in a lifetime, but adds up over centuries. Subtract about 24 degrees from a tropical position to get sidereal position. A planet at 14 Aries in tropical is around 20 Pisces in sidereal.
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Who uses tropical now? Tropical is primarily used by western astrologers since the middle ages.
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